This continues the testimony of Detective Constable Ernest Carmichael. Both Day 1 and Day 2 of the hearings are available, along with the ruling itself.
Why does this matter? Because police were successful back in May 2024 for an Application to have Gary Schill’s firearms and licence suspended for 5 years. See Part 1 and Part 2 for more background information. It was largely (though not entirely) due to his association with Jeremy MacKenzie and Diagolon.
Schill had faced a charge of assault causing bodily harm against his then wife, Jennifer McNeil. She was also charged with a lesser count against him. Both were eventually dropped. Nonetheless, the police were still able to get a firearms suspension for Schill.
It’s immediately obvious that the standards for an Application to suspend or revoke a gun permit are far lower than when someone faces a criminal charge. Speculation and hearsay are permitted a lot more. Instead of “beyond a reasonable doubt”, the police must only demonstrate “on a balance of probabilities”. The Judge also has wide discretion to deem such a ban to be “in the public interest”.
Carmichael entered into evidence a document which he claims (or speculates) shows a plot to steal fuel during the trucker convoy. He says this is likely to circumvent the fuel shortages that had been intentionally imposed.
As for hearsay being admitted into the hearing, this is noteworthy:
Carmichael testifed that Jennifer McNeil, Schill’s wife at the time, provided other information to law enforcement during her victim statement. Specifically, she said that Schill was part of Diagolon, part of a militia, and targeting military and law enforcement members for recruitment.
Interestingly, McNeil herself didn’t testify at the hearing. Only Carmichael did. In a regular Court proceeding, her statements would have been considered “hearsay” and deemed inadmissible. The Judge allowed this in, and it doesn’t appear to have been challenged.
Carmichael continues (on page 8).
In the very beginning, we weren’t 100 percent sure. The Freedom Convoy was quite organic and it, it began in Western Canada and transitioned across the, the country to Ottawa. As we understood it, there was going to be a convergence of vehicles, large trucks, arriving in Ottawa. I was involved in the project team that monitored the number of vehicles who would be attending, what the dynamic of the crowd would be, and trying to get an intelligence assessment of what the Freedom Convoy would look like once it arrived in Ottawa. Of concern to us was the presence and interest of most of Diagolon. Most members, because our investigation actually started prior to the Freedom Convoy.
We had the benefit of, of monitoring a lot of the individuals we were interested in, leading up to the Freedom Convoy and, subsequently, their travel to Ottawa. Our concern was obviously Diagolon had made their ideology quite well-known, from our perspective. They were preparing for a civil war. They had an appetite to overthrow the government and force the government to change their policies relating to the COVID-19 response. So our concern was that what had the potential to be a peaceful protest in Ottawa could evolve into a violent confrontation because of the extremist elements we knew of that would also be attending.
We had, we had a lot of examples of conversations that was happening leading up to the Freedom Convoy. The organizers themselves stated that they intended to stay in Ottawa until the government changed their position on the COVID-19 response. MacKenzie himself has spoken of civil war and encouraged his members to prepare for it.
They use a phrase often, which is, “Gun or rope.” And this implies that when civil war occurs, it’s going to be a Diagolon versus everybody response. And Diagolon’s – the way they, they would treat their enemies during this uprising or civil war would be – they, they would be afforded the option to be executed by firing squad or hung. So that was what the, the, “Gun or rope,” phrase often referred to. So there was a lot of examples of, of rhetoric like that leading up to the Freedom Convoy that, that indicated to us that these individuals had an appetite to arm themselves, prepare themselves and had an appetite for violent confrontation. In fact, I, I believe I quoted yesterday, one of the Ticker Tape messages on Jeremy MacKenzie’s podcast where he says, “You want blood, come and get it,” and then it was the, “Fuck you, make me.”
Remember all of those edgy podcast jokes and memes? Guess what? They’re being entered into evidence as legitimate threats to public safety. The police are actually doing it, and the Judge is taking it all seriously.
Here’s a thought: maybe rampant fed-posting wasn’t such a good idea.
Carmichael testifies that it wasn’t necessary to conduct direct surveillance on Diagolon itself during the trucker convoy. This was because so many people simply posted photos, videos and details online, police could simply monitor it.
He then references a video which he calls a “Diagolon meet up”, which include Schill, MacKenzie and several others.
Carmichael eventually gets into the arrests at Coutts, Alberta. One of them was Chris Lysak. It was apparently a joke that he was the “Head of Security for Diagolon”, given his size.
One of the ballistic vests seized apparently had 2 Diagolon flags on them.
Carmichael then goes on about the various meet-ups that had been arranged, and how the information was obtained by monitoring Telegram channels. Now this:
In preparation for this hearing, the Crown was required to provide disclosure to Schill. Specifically, Carmichael’s Affidavit was sent to him. For some reason, MacKenzie published portions of it on his Substack. This was used to help establish a direct connection.
Interestingly, Carmichael testifies that the authorities weren’t willing to pay for a subscription to MacKenzie’s Substack, which would have allowed them to view everything. They consider him a public threat, and spend large amounts of money monitoring Diagolon, but wouldn’t pay this nominal fee?
Carmichael also explains that police wanted to know exactly who was posting on Telegram — since most accounts were anonymous. Yes, the servers aren’t located within Canada. However, it doesn’t seem any real effort was put in to try. Or perhaps they did get in, but don’t want to disclose that.
Carmichael concedes that he doesn’t believe that everyone associated with Diagolon is a terrorist or an extremist. He says that there is a broad range of people who are attached in some way.
Carmichael then goes on to speculate at length about how he believes Diagolon has simply “gone underground” given the attention they’ve received. Without really providing evidence or support, he claims that it’s still a threat to the public.
On cross-examination from Schill’s Amicus Counsel (starting at page 25) Carmichael reiterates that he’s been monitoring the Telegram chats constantly. Even on his off days he often listens to podcasts. In his notes, he states that he has listened to at least 38 episodes.
Of course, this doesn’t include what other members of intelligence or law enforcement have been listening to.
It’s fascinating how such a bad spin is put on these things. “Get offline and find your friends” is a legitimate goal, in that the online world doesn’t reflect reality. However, it’s being construed to mean the formation of militias for the purpose of causing violence and civil unrest.
In some sense, Schill’s Amicus Counsel actually seems to have done more harm than good. He gets Carmichael to explain new things — such as cutting down towers to stop 5G — that weren’t previously testified to.
Carmichael then goes on about the risk that “fed posting” causes. He says that Diagolon members fear being entrapped by someone saying overtly illegal things. This, he concludes, has caused them to go offline a lot more, and to be more guarded in their speech.
Carmichael admits that there’s no reference to “military style shooting” in the chats he’s reviewed. This implies that it was simply his interpretation. Nonetheless, this sort of this was allowed into evidence.
Carmichael also concedes that Schill himself didn’t participate in the conversations about bush craft of firearms tactics. Moreover, he concludes that he didn’t have grounds to support the conclusion that Schill was involved with terrorism or sedition.
Carmichael concedes that there’s no evidence Schill ever went to a so-called “Diagolon meet up”. He admits that no surveillance on Schill’s residence concluded otherwise.
The topic of the arrest for domestic violence is discussed. Again, the charge was dropped at the time of this hearing.
The Crown briefly reexamines Carmichael, who testifies that they found ammunition at Schill’s residence that wasn’t compatible with any of his legally obtained firearms.
Ultimately, Justice Robinson does grant the Application, and issues a 5 year prohibition for Schill. He refuses to allow any exemptions, including for a crossbow for hunting.
He cites the Public Emergency Order Commission (PEOC) Report from Paul Rouleau as well. It states that: “[l]aw enforcement and intelligence agencies view Diagolon as a militia-like extremist organization.”
Unfortunately, too many people post without having any understanding of what’s been going on. The Emergencies Act wasn’t invoked because of a meme, and the “Hate Gate” emails didn’t clear anyone. The PEOC Report was referenced in the decision to take Schill’s firearms and licence.
Even though Diagolon isn’t listed as a terrorist entity, and despite no evidence Schill was involved in terrorism or sedition, Schill’s firearms were taken away anyway. Yes, his assault charge had been dropped, but that wasn’t enough.
The standard for revoking or suspending firearms is actually quite low, and can be done for nearly any reason. This will be addressed in the next part.
SCHILL HEARING:
(1) https://www.canlii.org/en/on/oncj/doc/2024/2024oncj249/2024oncj249.html
(2) Evidence Of Officer Ernest Carmichael, Day 1
(3) Evidence Of Officer Ernest Carmichael, Day 2, Cross Examination
PEOC HEARINGS:
(1) https://publicorderemergencycommission.ca/
(2) PEOC Report, Volume 1: Overview
(3) Public Order Emergency Report Volume 1 Overview
(4) PEOC Report, Volume 2: Analysis (Part 1)
(5) Public Order Emergency Report Volume 2 Analysis Part 1
(6) PEOC Report, Volume 3: Analysis (Part 2)
(7) Public Order Emergency Report Volume 3 Analysis Part 2 Recommendations
(8) PEOC Report, Volume 4: Process and Appendices
(9) Public Order Emergency Report Volume 4 Process And Appendices
(10) PEOC Report, Part 5: Policy Papers
(11) Public Order Emergency Report Volume 5 Policy Papers
MOSLEY DECISION:
(1) https://www.canlii.org/en/ca/fct/doc/2024/2024fc42/2024fc42.html#par41
I always find it precious when someone accuses another of trying to overthrow the government.
EVERY government in Canada has been a corporation masquerading as a ‘government’, and since 1931, the purported government has had no authority to interfere in the lives of men and women. They never had before 1931, but they sure didn’t after the Statute of Westminster, 1931 was made permanent, repealing everything including the BNA, purported Constitution, etc.
Ah, but we perish for the lack of knowledge.
No one has to overthrow anything…it’s all fiction.
If you want the knowledge, contact People-United at p-united@proton.me and ask for a life membership so you can finally get the facts and the truth about EVERYTHING.