Category: Diagolon

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Diagolon Gun Grab, Part 2: The Carmichael Testimony

This continues the series on “Diagolon”, and the consequences that have resulted from this group. The last article focused on the ruling of Justice Robinson, who suspended Gary Schill’s firearms licence and weapons for a period of 5 years. Schill was a former administrator of the Diagolon podcast.

This doesn’t just automatically happen. A police officer brings an Application under Section 111 of the Criminal Code to ask a Judge to suspend someone’s rights. This isn’t as formal as a Trial, and the proof standards aren’t anywhere near as high.

Now, what was said during the hearing?

Fortunately, a redacted version of the Day 1 and Day 2 transcripts were published. The redactions appear to have been done to remove the name of Schill’s ex-wife. Yes, it’s from Antihate, but still worth a read.

Schill was represented by an Amicus Curiae. This is someone who isn’t a party, but is allowed to assist and make submissions for parties. Think of them as “duty-counsel”. They can be common for self-represented litigants and accused persons.

Ernest Carmichael is a detective constable with York Regional Police Service. He testified that he had been with the Tactical Intelligence Unit for 5 years. He went on to explain what had he and his group had been doing lately.

He testified that there had been a complaint that a member of the York Regional Police had publicly associated himself with Jeremy MacKenzie and Diagolon. That person is apparently no longer part of the force. It’s implied (though not explicitly stated) that the association cost him his position.

It paints a disturbing picture for many reasons.

First, the standard of proof needed to revoke a firearms licence is surprisingly low. Even though this is based in the Criminal Code, there’s no “proof beyond a reasonable doubt” needed. Far from it. “Balance of probabilities” is what’s important here.

Second, the rules of evidence are also much more lax, including hearsay evidence that should otherwise be prohibited. This included and Affidavit from Detective Constable Dimitri Kritsotakis, submitted, despite him not appearing. Carmichael is given wide latitude to speculate on matters.

Third, it’s explained here just how heavily surveilled podcasts and social media sites are. Without speaking to a single witness, this police officer was able to get a warrant to seize electronic devices.

Fourth, freedom of association — a protected right — seems meaningless when someone can lose their job because of who they interact with. Unfortunately, the circumstances here are not explained. The officer is not named, nor is his exact fate spelled out.

Fifth, it shows just how clueless and out-of-touch MacKenzie’s followers are with reality. They are oblivious to the basic facts. The Emergencies Act wasn’t declared because of a “meme”, and people weren’t exonerated due to some “Hate Gate emails”.

The above is from page 8. No actual interviews had to be conducted. The information obtained online was sufficient, which should really scare people.

Carmichael goes on to testify that he came across a video MacKenzie posted, just before receiving the formal complaint. He describes the “Raging Dissident persona” as this: He sells anger, really, on his podcast. He’s often vehemently anti-government, anti-authority. So by virtue of that, his following tends to be of the same vein.

Carmichael testifies that he had been monitoring “these channels” for the better part of 2 years. While it implies he refers to Diagolon channels, it could mean others as well. Then there’s this on page 14:

Yeah. The majority of the content was – especially considering the time, it was very anti-COVID, anti-vaccine, anti-government material. There was a lot of conspiracy theory material in that. There was a lot of what I would define as White nationalists, White supremacy ideology existing within that space. There was also a lot of what I would define as militia-type discussions. There was a lot of talk of acquiring weaponry, body armour, ammunition, planning meet-ups, organizing community events, and then also articulating the purpose of these events beyond simply….

This is getting to the heart of it. Carmichael alleges that there’s more than just racist and anti-authoritarian posting done here. Conversations also involved firearms, body armour and meet-ups.

“The Day Of The Rope” and “The Turner Diaries” are both cited as well.

Carmichael testifies that not only was he observing and documenting conversations about guns and meetings, but that meetings themselves were surveilled.

Carmichael does go on about the backstory of the name “Diagolon”. Specifically, that it was based on the idea of a fictional country made up of the more sane and stable Provinces and U.S. States. That detail is agreed on by everyone.

However, Carmichael states (or opines?) that it became more of a separatist movement.

Carmichael also explains how he identified Schill, and it’s pretty stupid. He used his real name, real photo, and dropped details about the region he was living in. From there, a simple background check from a prior arrest revealed everything else.

Yes. So Mr. Schill made a number of statements that caused concern for us. With these statements, he was also promoting the fact that he was a firearms fanatic; he was involved in reloading within his garage, which means taking – basically, building bullets himself rather than commercially purchasing them…

…and producing a large amount of ammunition in his private residence. So this, like, compounded with the rhetoric, plus what we already understood about Diagolon raised our concerns related to public safety.

So I’ll, I’ll expand on some of the conversation pieces that we observed, but as an example, for – some of the messaging that Jeremy MacKenzie provided his, his members, I can read some of the messaging that was included on his podcast that would have been re-shared in the Telegram channels. He stated – during a podcast, there was a ticker tape, similar to what you would see on maybe CP24 that would scroll across the screen. And the banner stated:

Mentally prepare yourself for the hardest decade of your life. Your children need you to reject the system in its entirety. It isn’t for you. It is for your enemy, and it seeks to subvert, subjugate, and destroy you. You either pro-human freedom or you are not. One of those choices makes you our mortal enemy. Death to Circulon. We all just wanted to be left alone. You want blood. We got what you want. Come and get it. Fuck you, make me.

So that was some of the rhetoric that Jeremy MacKenzie was, was pumping out to his followers, who would then re-share it on the Telegram channel. So on the heels of a statement like that his members would then begin organizing in-person meetings. They would discuss what the purpose of these meetings would be. It was almost always around planning. I can quote, “bush craft, survival training, firearms training.” In fact, I can recall a conversation that involved Mr. Schill where they were discussing shooting and firearm training, but then Mr. Schill had stated something to the effect of, “Well, I don’t want to just go shoot. I’d like smaller groups. And I want to shoot with a purpose.” I interpreted that to mean they didn’t want to just go target shooting on a range. They wanted to apply practical skills to their shooting, similar to what you’d see the military or law enforcement trained to do.

It would be interesting to know — though it’s not expanded on — is whether this is just conversations being recorded, or whether the police (or CSIS) have actually gone to these meets.

Carmichael goes on (page 29) about conversations that happened about body armour, and what some good choices were. This is largely opinion, but he implies that it was directed for non-civilian use.

Because when compounded with the information we’d already had, and now it was quite clear that they were starting to develop their in-person meetings to include shooting and what we had interpreted as militia-type training, our concern was strictly public safety and whether we had a private militia forming within the region.

Keep in mind, this is a hearing over a gun licence, not a criminal trial. While most of this testimony wouldn’t have been permitted in other settings, it is here.

Carmichael then gets into the topic of Schill’s arrest for assault causing bodily harm, along with the arrest of his (now) ex-wife. Electronic devices were seized during a search. Schill had 3 guns, all legally owned and safely stored. However, he had ammunition which didn’t appear to fit any of them.

The hearing continued the next day, and more on that.

If there is one takeaway here, it’s that the police are arguing that Diagolon is more than just edgy podcasting, racism, and memes. Carmichael is trying to convince the Judge that it’s an actual group and a threat to the public. He’s trying to show that this is an extremist group with a violent agenda.

People reading this transcript may — reasonably — think that it’s full of speculation, innuendo and hearsay. And they’d be right. However, this isn’t a criminal charge, and the standard is much, MUCH lower.

The Public Emergency Order Commission (PEOC) Report and Mosley decision have laid the groundwork for what’s coming. Followers of “Diagolon” really have no clue what’s been going on. This case is the first of what will likely be many gun seizures.

SCHILL HEARING:
(1) https://www.canlii.org/en/on/oncj/doc/2024/2024oncj249/2024oncj249.html
(2) Evidence Of Officer Ernest Carmichael, Day 1
(3) Evidence Of Officer Ernest Carmichael, Day 2, Cross Examination

POEC HEARINGS:
(1) https://publicorderemergencycommission.ca/
(2) POEC Report, Volume 1: Overview
(3) Public Order Emergency Report Volume 1 Overview
(4) POEC Report, Volume 2: Analysis (Part 1)
(5) Public Order Emergency Report Volume 2 Analysis Part 1
(6) POEC Report, Volume 3: Analysis (Part 2)
(7) Public Order Emergency Report Volume 3 Analysis Part 2 Recommendations
(8) POEC Report, Volume 4: Process and Appendices
(9) Public Order Emergency Report Volume 4 Process And Appendices
(10) POEC Report, Part 5: Policy Papers
(11) Public Order Emergency Report Volume 5 Policy Papers

MOSLEY DECISION:
(1) https://www.canlii.org/en/ca/fct/doc/2024/2024fc42/2024fc42.html#par41

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Diagolon Gun Grab, Part 1: The Schill Decision

A few months ago, an Ontario Court Judge suspended the firearms permit of a man deemed to be a threat to the public. This came despite him being convicted of no crime. Gary Schill is prohibited from owning any firearm, cross-bow, prohibited weapon, restricted weapon, prohibited device, ammunition, prohibited ammunition or explosive substance for 5 years.

The reasoning of Justice Robinson rested largely — though not entirely — on his association with the “meme” group Diagolon, and its leader, Jeremy MacKenzie. The testimony itself as available in the transcripts linked below.

As an aside, yes, his name is misspelled throughout the ruling.

Part 2 of the series will focus on the testimony that was used.

For some background, Schill was arrested back in April 2022, along with his then-wife, Jennifer McNeil. Both faced domestic violence charges, but with his being the more serious. Charges against them were eventually dropped.

McNeil told the police that Schill: (a) was a member of Diagolon; (b) was a stream moderator; and (c) was recruiting ex-military members for the purpose of building a militia.

Following this, York Regional Police went to the Court for the purpose of pre-emptively getting a firearms prohibition against Schill. This came despite the fact that the charge against him had been dropped.

It’s worth noting that it’s not alleged that Schill ever engaged in any terrorist behaviour, or committed any ideologically motivated violence. However, the Judge thought that there were valid concerns that he might endanger the public.

This will probably come as a surprise to Diagolon supporters, who seem to be under the mistaken belief that the group was supposedly cleared with the “HateGate” revelations. Diagolon, after all, was based on a joke of a new country made up of the “sane” Provinces and States, going from Alaska to Florida.

But no such exoneration ever happened.

Paul S. Rouleau, head of Public Emergency Order Commission (PEOC) made it clear he views the group as a militia-like network. Members of CSIS, the RCMP and OPP all testified about their concerns.

There’s also the false claim going around that panic over this “meme country” was responsible for having the state of emergency declared in the first place. That also isn’t true. While MacKenzie and Diagolon were cited as concerns, there was a lot more going on.

Anyhow, more on that in a later piece. As for Schill:

[5] The entirety of the Crown’s case came through the evidence of D.C. Carmichael, a police officer with York Regional Police’s Tactical Intelligence Unit, a unit tasked with investigating terrorism, extremism and subversive groups.

Diagolon, Jeremy McKenzie and Mr. Schill.
[6] In August 2021, the police received a complaint from a member of the public regarding a police officer who was publicly associated with Jeremy McKenzie, a well-known extremist.

[7] Initially, D.C. Carmichael was tasked with conducting a surface level assessment of Mr. McKenzie. He quickly learned that Mr. McKenzie was a prominent podcaster under the name “Raging Dissident” with a large following. His views were vehemently anti-government and anti-authority. Mr. McKenzie was the founder and face of an organization named Diagolon.

[8] D.C. Carmichael identified two Diagolon-related Telegram channels in York region. One was entitled the “North of 7 Community Safe Zone for C-19 Bigots”. The other was “York Region Bigots”, which later became “York Region Purebloods.” D.C. Carmichael was able to join the channels and monitor their activity for approximately two years.

[9] The two York region channels directly referenced Diagolon. Whenever Jeremy McKenzie posted anything or released a podcast, its contents would be shared immediately on the York-region Telegram channels.

[10] The content of the channels was anti-vaccine, anti-government, white nationalist and white supremacy rhetoric. It involved conspiracy theory discussions and talk about assembly a militia by acquiring weaponry and body armour and planning meet-ups.

[11] D.C. Carmichael identified Mr. Schill early on as an active member on the Telegram channels. Unlike others who hid behind aliases, Mr. Schill identified himself by his real name and real photograph.

[12] Mr. McKenzie, the founder of Diagolon, actively promoted “Day of the Rope”, a book about a white supremacist revolution that was based on “The Turner Diaries”, a 1978 neo-nazi novel. The books, described by D.C. Carmichael as the bible of white nationalism, recount a race war that evolves into genocide in which all non-whites, Jews and “race traitors” are lynched.

[13] D.C. Carmichael observed nazi imagery on many of the profile pictures of Diagolon members on Telegram. Their discussions included coordinating meet-ups to engage in shooting and combat-training.

[14] A photograph of one such meet-up [exhibit 1] shows a gathering of 14 individuals performing a Diagolon “salute”. Mr. Schill can be seen saluting under a large Diagolon flag.

[15] As of 28 March 2024, D.C. Carmichael was able to determine through a social media query that Mr. Schill was still following Jeremy McKenzie on Instagram.

[16] There was also evidence that Mr. Schill was in communication with Paolo Scarpelli, a close associate of Jeremy McKenzie’s, to organize Diagolon dinner parties at Mr. Schill’s residence.

Conversations from Telegram were entered into evidence to try to demonstrate that these were not just words, but that Schill (and others) intended to meet up.

According to D.C. Ernest Carmichael, he had been monitoring various Telegram chats for approximately 2 years. This wasn’t anonymous gossip from the Canadian Antihate Network. It was the police actively monitoring group chats. These were used as exhibits.

Not only are the police watching the postings, but they’re checking to see who’s following who. It’s one way to build a “network of association”.

Telegram Chats Going Into Evidence

Posting pictures of guns, ammunition or body armour with the caption “let’s meet up” is a pretty idiotic thing to do. Considering the various topics that are discussed, it’s hard to imagine that it wouldn’t be used to try to incriminate people.

Asking to “take everything to DMs” or direct messages was used by the police to imply that this was intended for illegal purposes. Now, it may all have been perfectly legal and legitimate, but it was used as evidence that it wasn’t.

It’s quite stunning what people post. And the police were able to record everything, without ever needing a warrant.

The Judge also referenced the Coutts blockade, and the arrest of Chris Lysak, whom had been referred to as the “head of security of Diagolon”.

Publishing Evidence On MacKenzie’s Substack

[27] Shortly after Mr. Schill received his disclosure on the domestic charges, excerpts from it were posted on Jeremy McKenzie’s blog on Substack, an online platform.

This is mind-bogglingly stupid. Schill, at the time, was facing a charge of assault causing bodily harm. If the Crown had proceeded by indictment (the more serious option) a conviction even for a first offence would have been serious. It would mean a mandatory 10 year ban on all non-restricted weapons, and a lifetime ban on any restricted or prohibited weapons.

This is, of course, in addition to any jail time, probation or fine that was handed down.

Sharing with someone privately is one thing. But what would cause a person to think that publishing evidence in an open criminal case (with violence alleged) was a good idea?

Quoting The PEOC Report

Report of the Public Inquiry into the 2022 Public Order Emergency
[39] In February 2023, a report was released by the Honourable Paul S. Rouleau, Commissioner of a public Inquiry into the declaration of a Public Order Emergency issued by the federal government in 2022.

[40] The Report noted that “[l]aw enforcement and intelligence agencies view Diagolon as a militia-like extremist organization.”

[41] The Report further found that:
Diagolon may have started as a joke on Mr. McKenzie’s podcast, but it has grown into a larger community. The Royal Canadian Mounted Police (RCMP) has described Diagolon as a militia-like network with members who are armed and prepared for violence. In his testimony, the head of the Ontario Provincial Police (OPP) Intelligence Bureau described Diagolon as an extremist group… I am satisfied that law enforcement’s concern about Diagolon is genuine and well founded. The fact that a ballistic vest that was seized by the RCMP during the protests in Coutts – along with numerous guns – bore a Diagolon patch suggests as much.

[42] Notwithstanding the findings of the Commission, Mr. Foy points out that Diagolon is not currently listed as a terrorist entity on Public Safety Canada’s list of domestic terrorist groups.

Worth noting: Diagolon is not currently listed as a terrorist group.

Now, one could argue that it was unfair to have the PEOC Report used as a foundation for Justice Robinson here. Sure, it could be viewed as guilt by association. That being said, PEOC was used as a basis to pull Schill’s gun licence.

Assessment Of Risk Of Diagolon, Schill, MacKenzie

[64] The views of Jeremy McKenzie and his creation, Diagolon, can properly be described as anti-government and anti-authority, promoting the assembly of a militia to overthrow or, at the very least, actively resist the government.

[65] Mr. Pearson invites me to make a finding that Diagolon is a “terrorist group” as defined in s.83.01 C.C.. It is unnecessary for me to do so.

[66] Rather, it is sufficient – and permissible – for me to rely on the Commission Report’s findings that Diagolon is a militia-like extremist organization consisting of members who are armed and prepared for violence. I concur with the Commission’s finding that law enforcement’s concern about Diagolon is genuine and well-founded.

[67] Apart from the Commission’s findings, the evidence before me reasonably supports a valid public safety concern about the activities and members of Diagolon.

[68] Viewed cumulatively, there is cogent evidence that situates Mr. Schill in the inner ideological circle of Diagolon and close to its founder, Jeremy McKenzie. There is also cogent evidence of Mr. Schill’s intention to engage in the type of illegal activity espoused by Diagolon. For example:

(a) Mr. Schill’s devices show direct communication between him and Mr. McKenzie;

(b) Mr. Schill remains a follower of Mr. McKenzie on Instagram;

(c) Mr. Schill was an active participant on Telegram’s Diagolon channels based in York Region;

(d) Mr. Schill was observed in attendance at a Diagolon meet-up, where he was photographed giving the Diagolon salute under the Diagolon flag;

(e) Mr. Schill was actively engaged in organizing Diagolon meetings with Paolo Scarpelli, a close associate of Jeremy McKenzie;

(f) Mr. Schill’s wife provided evidence that he was attempting to recruit ex-military members to build a militia;

(g) Mr. Schill’s Telegram posts can reasonably be interpreted as an attempt to organize tactical shooting and combat training outings;

(h) Mr. Schill’s posts about attempting to acquire Level IV body armour and his desire to be “protected against mil spec” suggests active resistance against the government and not merely protection;

(i) Mr. Schill’s use of guarded language (e.g. “catch my drift” ) seems to confirm the illegal objective of the posts;

(j) Mr. Schill’s post about the House of Commons is clearly a reference to burning down Parliament;

(k) Mr. Schill was part of the inner circle Diagolon meeting on the outskirts of Ottawa during the Freedom Convoy;

(l)At the meeting, in which Jeremy McKenzie personally acknowledged and thanked Mr. Schill, Mr. McKenzie’s parting words were “there will not be any fucking surrendering as long as I am around;”

(m) Mr. Schill’s garage contained a re-load station in which he stored “huge amounts” of ammunition, not all of which was compatible with his lawfully-owned firearms; and

(n) In that same re-load station, Mr. Schill had a hand-drawn sketch of what can only be interpreted as a plan to engage in criminal activity at a closed gas station.

This was enough for Justice Robinson to conclude that a 5 year prohibition from weapons was warranted. For all the cries about this group just being a podcast community and “based on a meme”, these conversations and meets were used as evidence.

This ruling came from an Ontario Judge, not some nobody. Now, it’s precedent, and will almost certainly be cited in future cases.

Diagolon and MacKenzie weren’t cleared by the PEOC report. Rouleau made it clear that the thought the group was dangerous.

They weren’t cleared by the Mosley ruling either. That was the January 2024 verdict in Federal Court that it was unreasonable to invoke the Emergencies Act. There was just passing mention of them at all.

Defenders have claimed that there was no evidence of wrongdoing, and that there was a heavy reliance on groups like the Canadian Antihate Network. This was supposed to be some major intelligence failure. But Carmichael testified that he personally had been monitoring the chats for 2 years. The transcripts are available, and are also worth a read.

Now, a person has had his firearms rights suspended — despite not being convicted of a crime — due in large part to his connection to this “meme” group.

Could the police be lying or exaggerating in order to punish someone they ideologically disagree with? Sure, it’s possible. Nonetheless they were successful at getting the licence taken away. Please read the decision in full.

Guess that wasn’t something to brag about on the “Road Rage Terror Tour”.

More on PEOC and Mosley coming in subsequent posts.

Now, the ruling does look really, REALLY bad, but what was actually said at the hearing? The transcripts are available, so Carmichael’s testimony can be looked at. And interestingly, it comes across as a lot more speculative than what the Judge wrote. Stay tuned.

SCHILL HEARING:
(1) https://www.canlii.org/en/on/oncj/doc/2024/2024oncj249/2024oncj249.html
(2) Evidence Of Officer Ernest Carmichael, Day 1
(3) Evidence Of Officer Ernest Carmichael, Day 2, Cross Examination

POEC HEARINGS:
(1) https://publicorderemergencycommission.ca/
(2) POEC Report, Volume 1: Overview
(3) Public Order Emergency Report Volume 1 Overview
(4) POEC Report, Volume 2: Analysis (Part 1)
(5) Public Order Emergency Report Volume 2 Analysis Part 1
(6) POEC Report, Volume 3: Analysis (Part 2)
(7) Public Order Emergency Report Volume 3 Analysis Part 2 Recommendations
(8) POEC Report, Volume 4: Process and Appendices
(9) Public Order Emergency Report Volume 4 Process And Appendices
(10) POEC Report, Part 5: Policy Papers
(11) Public Order Emergency Report Volume 5 Policy Papers

MOSLEY DECISION:
(1) https://www.canlii.org/en/ca/fct/doc/2024/2024fc42/2024fc42.html#par41