This continues the series on “Diagolon”, and the consequences that have resulted from this group. The last article focused on the ruling of Justice Robinson, who suspended Gary Schill’s firearms licence and weapons for a period of 5 years. Schill was a former administrator of the Diagolon podcast.
This doesn’t just automatically happen. A police officer brings an Application under Section 111 of the Criminal Code to ask a Judge to suspend someone’s rights. This isn’t as formal as a Trial, and the proof standards aren’t anywhere near as high.
Now, what was said during the hearing?
Fortunately, a redacted version of the Day 1 and Day 2 transcripts were published. The redactions appear to have been done to remove the name of Schill’s ex-wife. Yes, it’s from Antihate, but still worth a read.
Schill was represented by an Amicus Curiae. This is someone who isn’t a party, but is allowed to assist and make submissions for parties. Think of them as “duty-counsel”. They can be common for self-represented litigants and accused persons.
Ernest Carmichael is a detective constable with York Regional Police Service. He testified that he had been with the Tactical Intelligence Unit for 5 years. He went on to explain what had he and his group had been doing lately.
He testified that there had been a complaint that a member of the York Regional Police had publicly associated himself with Jeremy MacKenzie and Diagolon. That person is apparently no longer part of the force. It’s implied (though not explicitly stated) that the association cost him his position.
It paints a disturbing picture for many reasons.
First, the standard of proof needed to revoke a firearms licence is surprisingly low. Even though this is based in the Criminal Code, there’s no “proof beyond a reasonable doubt” needed. Far from it. “Balance of probabilities” is what’s important here.
Second, the rules of evidence are also much more lax, including hearsay evidence that should otherwise be prohibited. This included and Affidavit from Detective Constable Dimitri Kritsotakis, submitted, despite him not appearing. Carmichael is given wide latitude to speculate on matters.
Third, it’s explained here just how heavily surveilled podcasts and social media sites are. Without speaking to a single witness, this police officer was able to get a warrant to seize electronic devices.
Fourth, freedom of association — a protected right — seems meaningless when someone can lose their job because of who they interact with. Unfortunately, the circumstances here are not explained. The officer is not named, nor is his exact fate spelled out.
Fifth, it shows just how clueless and out-of-touch MacKenzie’s followers are with reality. They are oblivious to the basic facts. The Emergencies Act wasn’t declared because of a “meme”, and people weren’t exonerated due to some “Hate Gate emails”.
The above is from page 8. No actual interviews had to be conducted. The information obtained online was sufficient, which should really scare people.
Carmichael goes on to testify that he came across a video MacKenzie posted, just before receiving the formal complaint. He describes the “Raging Dissident persona” as this: He sells anger, really, on his podcast. He’s often vehemently anti-government, anti-authority. So by virtue of that, his following tends to be of the same vein.
Carmichael testifies that he had been monitoring “these channels” for the better part of 2 years. While it implies he refers to Diagolon channels, it could mean others as well. Then there’s this on page 14:
Yeah. The majority of the content was – especially considering the time, it was very anti-COVID, anti-vaccine, anti-government material. There was a lot of conspiracy theory material in that. There was a lot of what I would define as White nationalists, White supremacy ideology existing within that space. There was also a lot of what I would define as militia-type discussions. There was a lot of talk of acquiring weaponry, body armour, ammunition, planning meet-ups, organizing community events, and then also articulating the purpose of these events beyond simply….
This is getting to the heart of it. Carmichael alleges that there’s more than just racist and anti-authoritarian posting done here. Conversations also involved firearms, body armour and meet-ups.
“The Day Of The Rope” and “The Turner Diaries” are both cited as well.
Carmichael testifies that not only was he observing and documenting conversations about guns and meetings, but that meetings themselves were surveilled.
Carmichael does go on about the backstory of the name “Diagolon”. Specifically, that it was based on the idea of a fictional country made up of the more sane and stable Provinces and U.S. States. That detail is agreed on by everyone.
However, Carmichael states (or opines?) that it became more of a separatist movement.
Carmichael also explains how he identified Schill, and it’s pretty stupid. He used his real name, real photo, and dropped details about the region he was living in. From there, a simple background check from a prior arrest revealed everything else.
Yes. So Mr. Schill made a number of statements that caused concern for us. With these statements, he was also promoting the fact that he was a firearms fanatic; he was involved in reloading within his garage, which means taking – basically, building bullets himself rather than commercially purchasing them…
…and producing a large amount of ammunition in his private residence. So this, like, compounded with the rhetoric, plus what we already understood about Diagolon raised our concerns related to public safety.
So I’ll, I’ll expand on some of the conversation pieces that we observed, but as an example, for – some of the messaging that Jeremy MacKenzie provided his, his members, I can read some of the messaging that was included on his podcast that would have been re-shared in the Telegram channels. He stated – during a podcast, there was a ticker tape, similar to what you would see on maybe CP24 that would scroll across the screen. And the banner stated:
Mentally prepare yourself for the hardest decade of your life. Your children need you to reject the system in its entirety. It isn’t for you. It is for your enemy, and it seeks to subvert, subjugate, and destroy you. You either pro-human freedom or you are not. One of those choices makes you our mortal enemy. Death to Circulon. We all just wanted to be left alone. You want blood. We got what you want. Come and get it. Fuck you, make me.
So that was some of the rhetoric that Jeremy MacKenzie was, was pumping out to his followers, who would then re-share it on the Telegram channel. So on the heels of a statement like that his members would then begin organizing in-person meetings. They would discuss what the purpose of these meetings would be. It was almost always around planning. I can quote, “bush craft, survival training, firearms training.” In fact, I can recall a conversation that involved Mr. Schill where they were discussing shooting and firearm training, but then Mr. Schill had stated something to the effect of, “Well, I don’t want to just go shoot. I’d like smaller groups. And I want to shoot with a purpose.” I interpreted that to mean they didn’t want to just go target shooting on a range. They wanted to apply practical skills to their shooting, similar to what you’d see the military or law enforcement trained to do.
It would be interesting to know — though it’s not expanded on — is whether this is just conversations being recorded, or whether the police (or CSIS) have actually gone to these meets.
Carmichael goes on (page 29) about conversations that happened about body armour, and what some good choices were. This is largely opinion, but he implies that it was directed for non-civilian use.
Because when compounded with the information we’d already had, and now it was quite clear that they were starting to develop their in-person meetings to include shooting and what we had interpreted as militia-type training, our concern was strictly public safety and whether we had a private militia forming within the region.
Keep in mind, this is a hearing over a gun licence, not a criminal trial. While most of this testimony wouldn’t have been permitted in other settings, it is here.
Carmichael then gets into the topic of Schill’s arrest for assault causing bodily harm, along with the arrest of his (now) ex-wife. Electronic devices were seized during a search. Schill had 3 guns, all legally owned and safely stored. However, he had ammunition which didn’t appear to fit any of them.
The hearing continued the next day, and more on that.
If there is one takeaway here, it’s that the police are arguing that Diagolon is more than just edgy podcasting, racism, and memes. Carmichael is trying to convince the Judge that it’s an actual group and a threat to the public. He’s trying to show that this is an extremist group with a violent agenda.
People reading this transcript may — reasonably — think that it’s full of speculation, innuendo and hearsay. And they’d be right. However, this isn’t a criminal charge, and the standard is much, MUCH lower.
The Public Emergency Order Commission (PEOC) Report and Mosley decision have laid the groundwork for what’s coming. Followers of “Diagolon” really have no clue what’s been going on. This case is the first of what will likely be many gun seizures.
SCHILL HEARING:
(1) https://www.canlii.org/en/on/oncj/doc/2024/2024oncj249/2024oncj249.html
(2) Evidence Of Officer Ernest Carmichael, Day 1
(3) Evidence Of Officer Ernest Carmichael, Day 2, Cross Examination
POEC HEARINGS:
(1) https://publicorderemergencycommission.ca/
(2) POEC Report, Volume 1: Overview
(3) Public Order Emergency Report Volume 1 Overview
(4) POEC Report, Volume 2: Analysis (Part 1)
(5) Public Order Emergency Report Volume 2 Analysis Part 1
(6) POEC Report, Volume 3: Analysis (Part 2)
(7) Public Order Emergency Report Volume 3 Analysis Part 2 Recommendations
(8) POEC Report, Volume 4: Process and Appendices
(9) Public Order Emergency Report Volume 4 Process And Appendices
(10) POEC Report, Part 5: Policy Papers
(11) Public Order Emergency Report Volume 5 Policy Papers
MOSLEY DECISION:
(1) https://www.canlii.org/en/ca/fct/doc/2024/2024fc42/2024fc42.html#par41